Interview of Dave Zirin ― Resistance Radio

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Derrick Jensen: Hi, I’m Derrick Jensen. This is Resistance Radio on the Progressive Radio Network. My guest today is Dave Zirin. He writes about the politics of sports for The Nation and many other magazines and news papers. He’s the author or co-author of 6 books including What’s My Name, Fool? Sports and Resistance in the United States and Game Over: How Politics Has Turned the Sports World Upside Down.

And, Before we start – start, I just want to say A: how much I love your work and B: I think it’s extraordinary so often when we think of sports writers either we think of basically people just describing statistics in sports or basically being homers or people being really reactionary like attacking the athletes who did the black power salute at the Olympics. And, so I just find your work such a breath of fresh air. And I want to just ask you about the, um, how you came to start writing the – the – how you found your niche that way?

Dave Zirin: Oh, Derrick, first off thank you so much for the kind words. I mean I grew up a very serious, very intense, very over-enthused sports fan in New York City in the 1980s. It was a pretty high octane sports time and not just because all of the players were doing cocaine and I didn’t think about politics a great deal during my upbringing, but that changed for me a great deal in the 1990s as I was coming of age, getting political and there was a real effort that I made to try to find a way to maybe the word is justify, rectify, what have you, the fact that I wanted to be someone who devoted his life to fighting for social change and I wanted to maintain my sports fandom. And, the more I looked at sports, the more difficult frankly it was to do. It was like the more you actually looked beneath the surface, beneath the adrenaline packed plays, the more you see the rampant nationalism, the insane sexism, the homophobia, although there have been small steps at least recently to see that getting better. And, it’s the sort of thing where if you believe in social justice sports does not seem like the friendliest place to be. But, that perspective really changed for me in 1996 when a basketball player named Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf took the position of not coming out for the national anthem before games. And, even in those pre-internet times, I mean today if that happened it would be a huge story for 24 hours and then we would go on to something else. But, in 1996 this was a huge sports story, big profiles about it, and Rauf was eventually drummed out of the league. And, I’ll never forget one of the talking heads on ESPN saying that Rauf must see himself in the tradition of activist athletes like Muhammed Ali or Billie Jean King.

That was news to me. I was a huge ports fan and I was not aware that there was this alternative tradition in sports of people who tried to use this hyper-exulted brought to you by Nike platform to actually say something about the world. And the more I investigated that the more I started, first of all, to be fascinated by the fact that so much of this history was hidden from people like myself who was more of the mainstream sports fan type. Then, the second thing that fascinated me was I was seeing parallels to today. I was seeing all the things that a lot of the athletes, then, were talking about – that these struggles were ongoing. And, that’s really what inspired me to write about it, to be a sports writer, and it’s definitely not always easy to put it mildly because it’s not the friendliest of communities for these kinds of ideas. But, at same time, the only reason why I have a career is that there are a lot of Derrick Jensens out there. I mean, people who maybe like sports but hate the practice of viewership because it is so steeped in a right-wing draw and there’s an audience – an underserved audience of people who love sports but really don’t like what they’ve become and appreciate a kind of alternative analysis.

DJ: Well, that’s great. I learned math by figuring out pitchers’ earned run average when I was 6 and 7 and figuring out batting averages. I skipped school in the second grade to watch the St. Louis Cardinals and Detroit Tigers in the world series. So, I’ve been a sports fan forever. But, it breaks my heart that they are considered so a-political. Of course, nothing is a-political. If something pretends to be a-politcal that supports the status quo.

I wasn’t sure how to structure this interview because you’ve written about so many areas in sports and there were three areas, really, of mutual interest that I wanted to touch on and they were: the intersection of jock culture and rape culture, the demeaning of indigenous peoples through mascots and naming of teams, and the whole economics, the corporate welfare of sports, and the economics of large sporting events. So thinking about this last night, it occurred to me that instead of asking you about those three things – and this is kind of a joke, but kind of isn’t – I could just mention that the Florida State University football team – oh sorry, the Florida State University Seminole football team recently won the BCS – oh sorry, the Vizio etc. etc. – national championship. We have the whole package in one little place.

DZ: I gotta be honest with you. I missed that question. My son ran in at the very end. I know we were talking about the Florida State Seminoles, what was the question?

DJ: The Florida State Seminoles and the BCS bowl championship that brings together so much of the sexism, the racism against indigenous peoples, and the corporate welfare that characterize so much of the big-money sports. It’s all right there in one.

DZ: Sure and don’t forget that the star quarterback, the Heisman Trophy winner of Florida State had just been cleared of accusations of rape in a case. His name is Jameis Winston. I’m not going to comment on his innocence or lack thereof because I have no idea. But, I can comment and say, first of all, the investigation itself stunk to high heavens. I mean, in terms of how much the local Tallahassee police actually were looking into it. And the second part about it is that the mentalities particularly on social media Florida State fans towards the young woman for daring to come forward and say that she was sexually assaulted really was a head spinner. I can tell you, even me, I was getting these really creepy emails during that whole time from people in Florida State where they were talking about who this woman – – First of all, naming her name and encouraging me to out her which is a journalistic practice I disagree with profoundly. Secondly, the “you should know the real story about her” basically what I believe is called “slut-shaming” – talking about her sexual past, who knows is if any of that was true or not. But, the idea that they were actively courting a sports writer, and I know by-the-way I was not the only one this happened to. That’s a scary kind of culture around sports.

DJ: We see this sort of impunity…I mean, you mentioned in a recent article that one of the lessons to learn from that whole incident that its better to be him than Trayvon Martin in Florida…

DZ: I wrote a piece about that because I also could not turn my head away from the fact – like I’m looking at the story is that this country has an unbelievably horrific history, of course, of black men accused of rape particularly in the American South but not exclusively in the American South. We can remember Malcolm X’s phrase, “The American South begins at the Canadian border.” But we all know that was a feature of Jim Crow. The idea that “Hang first, ask questions later.” People know famous cases like that of Emmit Till and the Scottsboro boys where there was that kind of attitude. Emmit Till of course, only for supposedly winking at a white woman.

Of course, there are so many other times where lynchings took place against black men who were accused of rape, so I had to explore this idea about what does it say about 21st century America that here’s Jameis Winston accused of rape and because he’s a football star then there’s this rush to defend him by frankly the old boy network in Tallahassee. And for people who don’t know, Tallahassee is not southern Florida – it’s not where my mom grew up which was Cubans and Jews. Tallahassee is the old south in many respects. And the fact that power in Tallahassee rushed to Jameis Winston’s defense says something about football culture in the south. And the bizarre effect it has on race and racism in those parts of the country.

Of course, Trayvon Martin was not an athletic star. He was just a kid trying to get home during halftime of the NBA all-star game and you saw the way his death was dealt with in the south and in the power structure particularly among the police. I’m not talking social media stuff. I’m talking the difference between the sheriff where Trayvon Martin was killed and the sheriff not wanting to do anything about that until he had to be removed. The difference between that and the situation in Tallahassee where the local police force are actually telling the woman you don’t want to mess with this player on the Seminoles because that’s serious business right there.

DJ: Which we can also see the same dynamic in place in Steubenville and any number…

DZ: Maryville, as well. Torrington, Connecticut. The number of cases involving sexual assault in athletes – the only reason we can reference them right now, Derrick, is because of social media and the work of groups like Anonymous who’ve tried to bring these to the light of day. This is on-going and what I’ve tried to write about is is there something inherent in jock culture that produces rape culture? And if there is, then how do we combat it? Because I also think that there are many germs in jock culture – some of which can be positive. One of the most hopeful interviews about this subject that I did was with a woman named Katie Hnida. I don’t even know if your listeners even know who Katie Hnida is, but she was a kicker and she was the first woman to ever score a point in a Division 1 NCAA football game. She was a place-kicker, field goal kicker. And Katie Hnida’s story is rather horrific. She was going to play for the Colorado Buffaloes – that’s big time NCAA football. And she was raped by her teammates. She quit the team and she was blamed and every horror story you can imagine for a young woman who accuses someone of rape – let alone football players of rape – happened to Katie Hnida. And she went to New Mexico after that and played for New Mexico. So, she didn’t give up football despite what had happened. And she had an incredibly positive experience on the New Mexico football team. And I had a long interview with her where we compared and contrasted those experiences, so we could really try to get at what is it about football, in particular, but jock culture in general that produces rape culture and can it be isolated? And, frankly, can it be destroyed?
DJ: And were your and her conclusions?

DZ: The conclusions after a lot of back and forth was that jock culture left unattended becomes rape culture. And, what it really takes is you have to have people in positions of authority – partly because the mentality of football, I’m sorry, but it’s not grass roots, it’s very militaristic, it’s very top down, and it’s people at the top that usually determine what the locker room culture is going to be. That means coaches, that means head coaches, that means athletic directors. At the pro ranks it means general managers and team presidents. They create the locker room culture, and unless you have people in authority actively intervening in jock culture to make it something less toxic then this is the fruit it will bear.

DJ: That actually reminds me of some of the stuff I’ve read about the relationship of military culture to rape culture.

DZ: Extremely similar.

DJ: A military is going to be at risk for being a high rape culture anyway, but there are some militaries that have had zero tolerance policies for sexual assault that have had much lower rates of rape amongst the soldiers.

DZ: Another example to move it to something which you could argue is perhaps a genetic cousin of rape culture is bullying culture – the likes of which we saw in the Miami Dolphins locker room this year with Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin. People I’m sure are probably familiar with that story. And Richie Incognito was suspended. Jonathan Martin left the team. And it imposed this discussion on the NFL of how you define “manliness.” Is Richie Incognito the real man because he’s the guy that’s going to beat up anybody who doesn’t do it his way? Or is Jonathan Martin not the real man, but the real grownup, the real adult because he’s saying, “Wait a minute this isn’t a school yard, this is a workplace, this is a union workplace, and I’m going to stand up for my rights and actually blow the whistle on this thing?” And, who do you actually respect more in that context, so it’s a question a lot of NFL players had to confront.

What’s the connection between what we were just talking about with rape culture? The main one is that none of that nonsense in the Miami Dolphins locker room would have happened without the tacit, implicit or explicit ok of the head coach themselves. That’s the people who create the culture in the locker room. And that culture’s either productive or helpful or not. Frankly, I don’t know why this is – maybe because this is an easier discussion to have in the mainstream sports media than rape culture – but a lot of NFL coaches talked about how they dealt with bully culture. What you saw was a real variance and you saw that some coaches had real philosophies about how to actively intervene on the question of bully culture. And like Mark Trestman – the coach of the Chicago Bears – and I remember hearing that and thinking to myself, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if coaches could talk as openly and as publicly about how they deal or don’t deal with rape culture.” Because it’s very similar dynamics if you think about. Group think, testosterone, a kind of mob mentality, not wanting to be the purpose who is singled out – all of these things are similar ingredients in one in the other.

I also want to be very clear about something, so that people aren’t confusing what I’m saying: When I say rape culture, when I say bully culture it’s not that everybody who plays sports is a potential rapist or a potential bully. The question of culture is, to me, much more about turning the other way. So you see a potential rape at a party or you see a bullying situation and you don’t say anything. You’re silent in the face of that. That’s what it means by rape culture or bully culture.

DJ: And we can say, of course, the same thing about sports writers or writers in general when they attend to it or don’t attend to it.

DZ: That’s of course absolutely correct. That’s one of the things that’s been, frankly, kind of difficult at times. Anyone who works at a work place whether you’re a professor at a university or a teacher at a public high school like my wife or you work at a hotel like my cousin wants to feel like they have colleagues, everybody wants to feel like they have the system’s support for the work that they do. It is difficult to do, sometimes, this kind of writing and sports investigative journalism because there are people who would rather you just shut up. It’s sort of like you’re the turd in the punch bowl. That’s sometimes difficult and it’s not as difficult, obviously, as the people who are actually victimized by some of the things you and I have been talking about. I think it’s very minor compared to that. But, just to put that out there, so people do realize that this is about fighting cultures that exist. It’s not some kind of level playing field where the people with the best ideas win out. It’s much more complicated than that.

DJ: I think everything you’re saying is really great. It also reminds me of this study I saw where they had a bunch of people in some sort of waiting room and they would have two people who were in on the test. One would say something overtly racist or overtly sexist to the group. What they found was that the response of the group of the whole was not so dependent upon what the first person said as it was on the response of the other person in on the test who would say, “Oh yeah, that’s right.” Then, everyone would look on the statement more approvingly. Or if the second person said, “Wow, that’s a terrible thing to say” – expressing disapproval – it gave the other people in the room courage.

I am saying this in terms of the mob mentality and also what you were saying about the coaches helping to create a culture. If the coach sees it and shuts it down, it’s not going to be re-inforced obviously.

DZ: I think that’s absolutely correct. I’ve played on a number of teams over the years and I’ve only had this experience once, unfortunately. The best case scenario would be if the players themselves determined the culture in the locker room. If you have real leadership among people, among good people who attempt to create an atmosphere of respect, you can actually create something that’s positive, there. Frankly, that’s something that can exist independent of the coach. Unfortunately, though, because hierarchy is so set in sports that’s a very difficult thing to have created organically. In my personal situation, it only happened because we had all played together on previous teams and then a new coach came in and that new coach was sensitive enough and smart enough to let us dictate how things went. He would only step in when he felt things going astray. This was basketball – teamwork, trust, and all that is very important. Those are lessons I’ve taken with me my entire life. The lesson about it that’s most important is that it keeps me from being too cynical about sports and about sportswriting because as bad as it gets I know it could be better.

DJ: In the face of many of the insanities of this culture, it’s really important to have examples we can look to either in our own experience or in history of people who resisted and then it did actually make a difference.

It’s like you were saying. I feel the exact same thing. It can be pretty lonely here. I feel like I’m passing gas at the dinner party.

DZ: That’s the phrase “turd in the punchbowl.” It’s that idea of doing something inappropriate…

DJ: …when we’re the ones who are actually speaking out. Can you imagine – either that woman you were mentioning or the athletes at the ’68 olympics standing there, or Muhammad Ali – the courage that would take?

DZ: It’s so interesting that you say that, too, because the other historical pattern in America (and this is what’s so frustrating) is that when people speak out in the present tense they’re absolutely vilified for it. Yet, then decades down the line, the same people who are vilifying them are praising them. Or their children or grandchildren. It’s so much easier to look back in the past than it is in the present day.

This happened recently. I was doing a story about the upcoming Sochi Olympics where a lot of athletes may be speaking about particularly on the question of LGBT rights in Russia. One of the heads of the international olympic committee in a speech was actually praising Tommie Smith and John Carlos for their memorable moment in ’68. He was asked, “Well, what do you think about athletes doing that now?” and it was like a switch flipped. The cognitive dissonance to be able to do that, to me, is absolutely stunning – to be able to just jump so quickly, so abruptly, and so crudely. The intellectual crudeness to be able to do this – from, “Wow, dissent is beautiful” to “Well, not dissent today” to “Politics: keep them out of the Olympics.” It’s unbelievable on the face of it. And yet, that’s the rhetoric, that’s the discourse, that’s what we’re dealing with all the time.

DJ: And, of course, this is not just in sports. We can say the same thing about John Brown. We can say the same thing about the Haymarket Martyrs. We can say the same thing with the suffragists.

DZ: That’s the truth. It’s usually one of two things – either, you’re buried and forgotten or you’re political teeth are extracted and you’re smoothed down to become something else. We deal with it every year. There’s articles about the real Martin Luther King by people on the left who try to remind everyone that King actually believed in things that are quite radical even today. We’re doing this today and yesterday the Department of Defense was tweeting out Martin Luther King quotes. Including one – I don’t even think they saw ghoulishness of this as they tweeted out – “The quality of one’s life is not measure in years but measured in your impact on society.” Is that how the Department of Defense justifies drone bombings overseas? “Yeah, we may be limiting peoples lives but, hey, that’s not really what matters.” Is there any self-consciousness that goes into that, let alone the fact that I’m sure Martin Luther King if he’d been in charge of the Department of Defense would have turned into the world’s most luxuriant day care center. It’s just outrageous.

I think in sports, though, it’s particularly difficult to get out the true stories. One reason for that is oftentimes – not in every case – but the retired athletes themselves don’t necessarily have a vested interest in going back to their more controversial pasts. Frankly, there’s no money in that. You want to be able to be on the speaker’s circuit. You want to be able to go to autograph shows.

Also, context is everything. It’s easier to be a rebel in 1968 when the fires are burning all around than in 2014 even if you and I both think those fires are still there just as much as they were in 1968. They just operate in a different way.

DJ: We’ve talked about the rape culture in sports, and I know we don’t have a lot of time, but can we touch on the mascot issue because that’s been in the news a lot lately. I really like your take on it. In fact, until I read your article and I would consider myself pretty well educated on these issues, I was buying the Florida State University story (I knew they hadn’t been paid for their acceptance of the mascot) that it was the Seminole Nation giving their acceptance and not the Seminole Tribal Council.

DZ: Why would anyone who doesn’t live in Oklahoma even know there was such a thing as the Oklahoma Seminole Nation? When are we taught that in history class? When is the Oklahoma Seminole Nation asked for comment on anything? This is some of the invisibility of racism. Few people in our society are treated with such abject invisibility as Native Americans.

I did a talk at a college in Oregon and I was asked a question by a perfectly well-meaning, I’m sure, in his own mind, liberal college student. We were talking about the whole Washington name change, the -R word, and this student said to me, “Do you think the reason why there are still teams with Native American mascots is because there are no Native Americans left?”

I understood what he was trying to ask. It’s a demographic question. You’ve heard people say this. The reason you don’t have teams named after Latinos or African Americans is because you couldn’t. In terms of just basic numbers, Native Americans make up 0.9% of the United States. But, there was a Native American young girl sitting right in front of him. She was 12 years old and she stood up in the meeting and looked at him and said, “There still are some of us left, you know.”

You could have heard a pin drop in that place.

It’s this sort of very casual racism and invisibility. White people in particular get so damn defensive where if you talk about racism in society it immediately becomes, “Oh, so what we’re all racists.” Because it’s a lot easier to do that than confronting racism itself. This is one of those classic cases. No, I’m not saying everyone who wears a Redskins cap or a Seminole jersey is a racist like they’re George Lincoln Rockwell 2.0. But, I am saying we need to do some reflecting about why there’s a team named after a racial slur, about why the Florida State Seminoles are allowed to go around with impunity and say they do this with the seal of approval from the Seminole Nation when the Florida Seminoles don’t even make up 40%, I believe, of the Seminoles nationally. That gets to some very interesting points about why are the majority of seminoles in Oklahoma and then you have to look seriously at this nation’s past, about the Indian Removal Act. It’s like pulling a string on a sweater. Oftentimes when people are watching sports or enjoying sports that’s the last thing they want to do.

DJ: I didn’t know this about their mascot. Can you mention about Osceola and make a connection to Mandela?

DZ: Absolutely. When Nelson Mandela died, quite correctly he was discussed with the most hushed possible tones – not just in the United States, but around the world. I think one of the reasons why was this was a person who endured 27 years behind bars only to emerge as the leader of his country. A remarkable thing. And, he was a freedom fighter, of course, behind bars.

Osceola was an unbelievable freedom fighter in the Seminole Wars. He fought the US Army to a standstill on multiple occasions. There was supposed to be a treaty with Osceola and when he went to the treaty, was immediately arrested, and thrown in jail. The United States was actually subject to international condemnation because of this. That’s how esteemed and known Osceola was. And he died in prison. I wrote in my article that Osceola was in many respects the American Mandela if Mandela had never gotten out of Robbin Island, or he is the American Steven Biko – the South African who never came out.

Yet, before these Florida State games, you have someone dressed up like Osceola – usually a white person in war paint – who rides out on a horse. Osceola never actually rode a horse because he fought in the swamps. You see this constant miseducation that is going on as everyone cheers for Osceola. And, the thing about it that’s the most hard to stomach is that Osceola was the replacement of Florida’s States first mascot who was a much more kind of step-and-fetch-it Native American character who went by the name of Sammy Seminole. That really was his name. In a weird way, though, Sammy Seminole is more honest for what this is which is minstrelsy than Osceola who is this amazing historical figure.

Can you imagine world wide condemnation if South Africa had someone dressed up like Steven Biko or dressed up like Nelson Mandela to dance around a stadium to psyche people up before a game? You would never see that in a million years. You see that in this country, frankly, because that’s the price of colonialism, depopulation, genocide, Indian Removal. This is what you get.

DJ: So, we’ve hit two of the three. We have about five minutes left and I know this is not enough time to do this justice, but another great thing that you write about…

DZ: Can I just jump in there and say that’s one of the greatest thing about being a sportswriter. I think the stories themselves just pop. There’s a lot of fun things to write about and delve into.

DJ: I have a similar thing with my own take on environmental writing. One of the great things about some of the environmental writing not covering issues the way I think they should is my own career has actually been…It’s hard in terms of public response, but it’s actually pretty easy in terms of finding material because no one else is writing this. It’s like, “Are you kidding, no body else has written about,” – in your case – “the Florida State Seminoles!?” No body else is taking this on, is this a joke? There’s just so much material. So, I’m just saying, I completely get that one. It’s tremendously both heartening, personally, and disheartening, socially, how much material there is to work with.

Can we do like a two-minute version of “Sports are just fun and games.” No, actually, their big business, with massive corporate wellfare.

DZ: Yeah. There’s no getting around that. This has been a real change in the economics of sports over the last 30 years – the mass infusion of corporate wellfare in sports and stadiums really operating like a neoliberal trojan horse where our cities are re-organized on neoliberal grounds.

You and I can go on a magical mystery tour through the former industrial midwest – Cleveland, Milwaukee, Detroit. What all these places have in common is that they have these new publicly funded stadiums for both basketball, baseball, and football. At the same time, you have the destruction, the erosion of union jobs and the jobs that are created are service industry jobs. It’s not just the question of public tax money going into these stadiums, it’s the question of the return on the investment, and what jobs are actually created. Unfortunately, far too much of public stadium funding is like this magical alchemy that turns tax dollars into private property.

DJ: Basically, it’d be like if I wanted to start a business and then I went to the taxpayers to the get funding to build my factory. If you perceive that as a stadium.

DZ: Yeah, that’s exactly right.

DJ: It’s a wonderful scam if you can get in on it.

DZ: It’s a hell of a scam. That’s the trojan horse aspect of it, of course. Often, it’s a popular thing to get a new stadium, although much less so according to polls over the last fifteen years as they have clearly and dramatically not returned on their investment. When you see something like what happened in Seattle where the beloved basketball team – the Supersonics – was ruthlessly ripped from the city, you see one of the prices of that. I think you see the price much more deeply in a place like New Orleans where the levies broke where the only place suitable for shelter was the Super Dome which cost hundreds of millions of dollars when many of the people huddled in there could not have afforded to buy a ticket to actually see a game.

DJ: I remember reading something years back and I’ve wanted to say this publicly, but I’ve never been able to because it doesn’t fit with my work. But, I read a study back in the early 90s about the multiplier effect for when a new stadium is built and they found it would actually do better for the local economy if you hired helicopters and threw money out the windows into those neighborhoods.

DZ: That’s a classic line about stadium funding. If you literally dumped a billion dollars from a plane, and people just picked it up and spent it, it would have a better economic multiplier effect than the building of stadiums. That in itself exposes these things for what they are.
This is the truth, Derrick, I used to go on radio shows and debate people about public stadium funding and you can’t debate it anymore because there’s so much data on the side that it’s a terrific waste of money. It’s like debating whether or not the sky is green. No one wants to take that position on it, either. The giving of public money especially in the context of, I think, the new normal of perpetual crisis in which we find ourselves where our cities are starved by gentrification and privatization. We find ourselves in this situation where they’re not going to defend it, they’re not going to do referendums, they’re not going to do public votes, but they’ll pay off the right politicians and get the money for their stadiums.

DJ: So, we have about one minute left. What would you like for sports fans and people who want social change and just people listening to this interview – what’s the take home message of all this? Can I say the take home message and you can agree or disagree?

DZ: I like that. Yeah.

DJ: He was very moving to me, too, but I can never remember his name, the guy you said influence you back in the 90s who played for the Denver Nuggets?

DZ: Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf

DJ: Yeah. It seems to me that part of it is that his courage helped give you courage. That for me is part of how social change takes place. One person stands up, and you stood up and held his hand. Now, the hope would be that someone else would stand up and hold your hand until we don’t have to have these discussions any more.

DZ: I think that’s great. I would also say that for a lot of these athletes the best thing we can do in the media is to be an ally. And that’s like being an offensive lineman – you want to clear space so their voice can be heard. And if people are saying you’re name too much, you might be doing something wrong.

DJ: Well, thank you so much for being on here. I would also like to thank listeners. My guest today has been Dave Zirin. This is Derrick Jensen for Resistance Radio on the Progressive Radio Network. Thank you so much.

DZ: Thank you, Derrick.

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